Official Luthiers Forum!

With that said, I'm with Paul and Steve. I like to go one step at a time
after learning from mistakes.

Since the subject of "lower priced guitars" now seems to be dovetailing with "experience," I feel it is time, once again to post the link to Bill Cumpiano's article, A Pedagog's Lament.

I've been building guitars for only three years, and I find it helpful to reread his wise words at least every six months or so.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Paul
I you for your ability to bring this up
in a clear and kind manner.
And Guys, Great added points, good advice for all.

Tom

_________________
http://www.moriciguitar.com

[QUOTE=James Orr] I'm not totally sure I agree with the usual thoughts regarding ruined
reputations. It's a small internet but a big world. I know people don't
have 60+ guitar backlogs based on one or two forums, which is where
most of the bashing would take place. I know forum presence can be
very helpful, but I don't believe it can be lethal. Please let me know where
you would disagree. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I disagree. I doubt if bad reviews will be lethal, but they certainly will hurt a TON worse than two guys at the local watering hole discussing the warts on your guitars.

The entire world of marketing is a-buzz over the word-of-mouth opportunities that the Internet opens up, and I think you would be smart to heed this channel as a way to amplify either your strengths or your deficiencies.

With respect to when to start selling. The entrepreneur in me says that you will never get sufficient experience until you "do it" whereas the marketer in me says that you always want to lead with your best foot forward.

I have spent some time talking to a flock of the older guys who have a couple of decades under their belt and most remark that some of the younger builders start selling too early...

I usually follow this up with a question about "how did you get started." which invariably ends in them telling me they sold their 2nd guitar and every one since.

.. so I am not sure that there is a "right" answer.
Brock Poling39059.8412152778

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I'm sorry but I disagree with everybody....

I say slap a couple of 2X4's together throw some strings on it and sell it! There's a buyer for everything....   

Obvioulsy I'm just joking...

Lots of wise advise was given in this thread... Paul, I agree with you 100%

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Here's the thing, and I'll put my head out to be chopped here.

I've been visiting an acoustic forum about once a week for a few months
after I was active on the original one for years, and I don't believe many of
them really have the game their talk would lead you to believe in terms of
their expertise. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's something
wrong with the idea that to love something and be moved by it requires
your to be a conosseur of it. They may slam a guitar, but what if the
builder simply explains why he voiced it the way he did? Or did whatever
he did.

I definitely understand the power of the net. I was one of the influences
for this project: http://freederekwebb.com/pages/finished.html But I
don't believe the internet is a big enough world to do damage in
proportion that it can do good. James Orr39059.863275463

[QUOTE=peterm] I'm sorry but I disagree with everybody....

I say slap a couple of 2X4's together throw some strings on it and sell it! There's a buyer for everything....   

Obvioulsy I'm just joking...

Lots of wise advise was given in this thread... Paul, I agree with you 100%

[/QUOTE]

That would be an electric guitar.   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=peterm] I'm sorry but I disagree with everybody....

I say slap a couple of 2X4's together throw some strings on it and sell it! There's a buyer for everything....   

Obvioulsy I'm just joking...

Lots of wise advise was given in this thread... Paul, I agree with you 100%

[/QUOTE]

That would be an electric guitar.    [/QUOTE]

Does that mean you disagree with me?

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

That's funny that you mention the seasoned guys out there Brock, when I talked with Jim Olson about 5 years back, he said the same thing, also believed that most of us "young guns" would build a better 1st and 2nd than he did his 10th.

Good thread guys.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Wow, what a great thread! Lots of wisdom to ponder here. I love it.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

I'll take my claim a step further. I don't believe it can do as much damage
as good. Have you heard of a luthier for whom it has? Or a slam or bad
review that's lingered?James Orr39059.8766435185

James, I'll respectfully disagree with you. Here's why:
Though you might know that the person posting his opinion doesn't know his head from his..er...well doesn't know if he's on foot or on horseback, the rest of the world might not. Someone might be surfing around looking for and acoustic guitar, stumbles upon said forum, sees the post that says "James' guitars are total junk" and leave it at that. Before you have your chance to explain yourself, your guitars are junk in this guy's eyes. Then he tells two friends who in turn tell two more...you get the idea.
I think it's easy for us as builders to say, "heck he doesn't know what he's talking about" but that might not be the case for the rest of the readers.
You also said that you simply explain youself if the person says something is wrong. It is my experience that the first word about something(and this is very general not just guitars) becomes THE word and all other words are trying to debunk it. So, even if you are totally right, it looks like you are on the defensive and just trying to find excuses.
Example, another builder had a guitar on a tour. He got a review that said the action was bad and therefore pretty much thought the guitar sucked. Well the builder answered by saying that road trips are the worst possible situation for guitars and the action should be expected to be moving all over the place as the guitar travels form one environment to another. He was right by the way. But it apeared as though he was just making excuses.
My point: you can market any way you wish. For me, ANY bad press is way too much. I'd much rather play it conservatively and wait until I'm totally sure I'm ready than rush something and risk bad pr.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] James, I'll respectfully disagree with you. Here's why:
Though you might know that the person posting his opinion doesn't know his head from his..er...well doesn't know if he's on foot or on horseback, the rest of the world might not. Someone might be surfing around looking for and acoustic guitar, stumbles upon said forum, sees the post that says "James' guitars are total junk" and leave it at that. Before you have your chance to explain yourself, your guitars are junk in this guy's eyes. Then he tells two friends who in turn tell two more...you get the idea.
I think it's easy for us as builders to say, "heck he doesn't know what he's talking about" but that might not be the case for the rest of the readers.
You also said that you simply explain youself if the person says something is wrong. It is my experience that the first word about something(and this is very general not just guitars) becomes THE word and all other words are trying to debunk it. So, even if you are totally right, it looks like you are on the defensive and just trying to find excuses.
Example, another builder had a guitar on a tour. He got a review that said the action was bad and therefore pretty much thought the guitar sucked. Well the builder answered by saying that road trips are the worst possible situation for guitars and the action should be expected to be moving all over the place as the guitar travels form one environment to another. He was right by the way. But it apeared as though he was just making excuses.
My point: you can market any way you wish. For me, ANY bad press is way too much. I'd much rather play it conservatively and wait until I'm totally sure I'm ready than rush something and risk bad pr.
[/QUOTE]

Disagree again!! (just kidding!)

Actually, Paul you are right on... if you want to make a career selling guitars you need exagerated good publicity.... ANY bad PR will be exagerated worse...
Remember... bad news travel a lot faster than good news and its damage far outweighs the good news...

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I can certainly appreciate that. I don't believe a bad review will do
nothing. I know it will, and some will remember it. I just don't believe
the boards can damage in proportion to good. Or in other words, I agree
with you on everything but the terms of severity. In fact, when I read this
at work today (I was principal for the day again, so I had a lot of net time),
I was very glad that you started the thread because I resonated with what
you had to say.

In general though, does this guitar mean anything to anyone?      



It divided the sea on the 13th fret back in the day. Now that I've written
my piece, I'll leave it where it is. I don't want there to be confusion that I
have any contention with Paul or Brock.

Good thread Paul. I will toss another thought into the mix that has not been discussed. If you don't have the means to build in a climate controlled room DON'T EVEN think about sending a guitar to a client in another state.

Here is a valuable lesson I learned after I could build "shiny boxes with strings". I built a guitar for a dealer and sent it to her which is a couple of states away. Three days later she called and said "the back SUNK IN". "What", I exclaimed? She sent it back and sure enough the back had sunk in like a giant salad bowl. A week later after hanging in "my garage" the back popped back out.

I had built and given away my first 13 guitars to family, friends and people in our church (read LOCAL people). The guitars were just fine and are still fine but they remained in the area I built them. However, when I sent them into another state where the RH was much lower than mine the wood shrank and you know the rest of the story. The morral is, be cautious, be patient and have a THOROUGH knowledge of what you are doing before jumping into the "big time" frying pan or you could be burned.

Just my $.03

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

That's one sweet looking Omega if I do say so myself.

That is a very good point Tim, I was thinking the same thing sometime earlier today.

The one thing that I would like to stress again is this from my first post.

[quote=Rod True]that it is constructed to an accepted standard for the price being sold. This is very important. [/quote]

There are standards out there for custom build guitars.

Remember awhile back when one of the OLF member's posted picks of the mandolin he was receiving from.....niceragua I think. We all blasted it, but all agreed that the market value for the instrument was valid because of the quality of the construction. We did however concur that the quality should be strived to be better.

Value is a funny thing. We don't all build Cadillac's, or Lexus', or what ever high end item you would like to put in there, but why shouldn't someone in the guitar purchasing world be able to spend $1,500 and get a custom built guitar that sounds just as good as a $1,500 Takamine, Martin, Larrivee, Taylor...... but may have some great looking wood, not just laminated stuff or EIR (not that there is anything wrong with that). Maybe, it's all about the bling, nothing more.

At some point you have to jump in the pool, just make sure you can swim is all I'm saying.

So, what would be that starting price for a custom guitar, and when would that price increase. It will be different for all builders I'm sure. Some shouldn't sell there 50th while some have every right to sell there 2nd. We've all seen some very good 1st right here over the past year. Remember KiwiCraig's post of his first


This of course is not the norm for a first but it can happen, we were all very impressed.

This is one of the funnest posts we've had in quite some time. I'm about to start another one that I hope will be just as fun.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

And I sold it for $ 20K,,,,,,,,,,,,,(joke)

Thanks for the compliment Rod. Yes ,I am still very happy with it , but not knowing how it would hold up over time , it may have poisoned my passion if I had received some form of comeback at a later date .



(it's better side )    KiwiCraig39060.3201388889

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

James,
    That guitar is one that I have no problem remembering or seeing
again. I was proud of it and happy with it when i completed it or I would
never have shipped it to the customer. That whole mess back at the 13th
Fret did more damage to me than anyone will ever know.

     The guitar was of a highly personalized and custom nature, obviously,
and had a flattering and humbling positive review posted by its owner a
month or so after it was shipped. A full year later, the very same person
posted a scathing review of the same guitar and how it needed a $500.00
set up because it was just never right and he was just never happy with it.
The setup guy he used is a very talented individual, but he's no better
than I am in any respect. He's just compiled a few celebrity names to his
clientele list that generate a perception of aving something over others.
My playability is among the best i've felt and it probably stems a bit from
the fact that i've played for forty plus years and twenty five or so of those
years professionally.

     If you'll remember, though, I tried to retrieve that original flowery
review to offer as a point of contrast to the new one that was written on
more of a personal level than a professional one for some reason that i've
never fully understood to this day. All of the comments were meant to do
just what they did as they hurt me personally and professionally so, sadly,
intention became result.

    In the long run, though, the backlog of more than 120 guitars that I
had at that moment in time didn't shrink or diminish in any way, but the
relationship that i'd enjoyed with the customer who'd received that guitar
was no more. Well, it was still a relationship, but not the one that i'd
worked to forge with him....it became one of him trying to destroy me
and my reputation and me spending much more time defending myself
and my guitars than anyone should ever have to. It was sad, but I'm glad
he's found guitars that were just right for him after buying and selling
from a dozen or so more builders since. It's a search sometimes as we all
well know.

     A software glitch had made a forum software change necessary
between them so the first review of a glowing nature wasn't available for
comparison so I was on my own, but a few people remembered the
original review as being the final point of decision as they placed orders
with me after reading it. Thankfully, many people who actually know me
and own my guitars poured out of the wings of lurking at the forum to
defend the quality and tone and playability of my guitars as well as me
personally. I was humbled by the outpouring of support at that time, but
it was a period of gut wrenching torment for me and I could always just
picture the person on the the other end reveling in that fact.

     The most amazing thing about the whole situation is that the next
owner sent the guitar to me to have it set up back at my default
parameters and dimensions which I was happy to do for him at no charge.
Everyone who played it loved it for its tone, fit and finish, inlay and
customization and playability so I was confused a little, but all was fine
once I was able to examine the guitar and have a good number of
credible players have a go at it after I returned it to my stock set up.

     The player who owns it now absolutely loves it and has ordered three
more guitars from me and purchased one from a dealer as a result of
taking posession of it, so the situation turned into one of gold for me....a
beautiful guitar in the hands of a satisfied cuatomer who thinks enough
of it to buy several more. There's a review of stark contrast to the one
that caused me so much heart ache back then.

    Reviews are powerful things in any business and they need to be
offered honestly and not with any other intention than to review the
guitar. I still don't know what the real underlying issue was there, but it
was sad and intended to nothing but harm to me. Fortunately, it failed in
the long run and I still have a backlog of more than 150 guitars.

     I can't wait to get back to work as things have tightened up here with
my injury holding me down since July. The surgeon told us yesterday that
I must wear my eleborate sling and support system for another three
weeks or so and then not touch a tool or put any sort of load on my
shoulder until March 2007. Physical therpay and a regimen of exercizes
and stretches at home are getting old quick, but i'm following
instructions to the "T" so i can enjoy a full recovery.

    Tonight will likely be my last post for a few months as we've pulled
things as tight as we're able to for my family to feel all of the effects as
little as possible. I'll be offline starting Monday and until i'm able to
complete and deliver my first guitars as i return to the land of the useful
and productive luthiers.

    Have fun while I'm away and I'll anxiously look forward to jumping back
in at whatever point i find you when i'm able to.

     This is the place to find the best guitar building community on the net.
Thanks for all of your support and encouragement. I'll miss it.

Thanks to all,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I agree with Paul and others, this issue has come up a number of times in threads and I am glad to see it addressed and share all of our thoughts.

I personally think my work is pretty clean and good, however, to step out and take on a commission or go public so to speak would be crazy for me. Maybe not for others. I give away my guitars to players and folks. I have set a benchmark for myself at 20-25 out the door and in someone else's hands before I feel I would be close to making some evaluations before moving into the building for dollars business.    

I have started "batch" building and find this to be a great learning experience that for me is moving me forward at a faster pace in the learning curve. Having 3-4 going together has allowed me to better focus on each step of the build since I am bringing them along just slightly staggered. This can be more expensive for sure, and you can make the same mistake 4 times, but I have found that I learn something new on each guitar at each step and get better because I get more practice.

There are some guys here on the OLF that have 1-2 and I must admit their work off the pic's is awesome. Some of you could step out there and make a hand, but I think those exceptionally gifted in this category are the exception and not the rule.

Mike

Hey, Kevin, it's good to hear from you. I didn't see any of that 13th Fret trouble, but I'm sure glad that it hasn't set you back professionally in the long run. Had to hurt on a personal level, though. What an odd and troubling turn of events that must have been. There's no way that a guitar with that level of craftsmanship in it could sound bad; and if an action problem developed after a year, a phone call or e-mail to you would obviously have set it on the road to quick recovery. The tie-in to this thread is interesting, in that a bad forum review did hurt you in the short term, but you still ended up on top. I suspect, though, that it's because you were ready and able to deliver outstanding instruments all along, and people were eager to testify to that fact.

Your current predicament has to be extremely frustrating, and you've certainly got my good wishes for a quicker-than-expected recovery.

You may have thought of this (or, perhaps you'd rather not think about this), but is there anyone known to you that could help you with jigs, stock preparation, shop organization, etc. to make your transition back to building a quicker and easier one? Perhaps in return you could help him or her construct a personal guitar later, when you're healthy. If some help now could make it possible for you to build a couple more guitars a year, it might be worth it. Just an idea.

Good luck, and get back to us as soon as you can!

[QUOTE=James Orr] Here's the thing, and I'll put my head out to be chopped here.

I've been visiting an acoustic forum about once a week for a few months
after I was active on the original one for years, and I don't believe many of
them really have the game their talk would lead you to believe in terms of
their expertise. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's something
wrong with the idea that to love something and be moved by it requires
your to be a conosseur of it. They may slam a guitar, but what if the
builder simply explains why he voiced it the way he did? Or did whatever
he did.

I definitely understand the power of the net. I was one of the influences
for this project: http://freederekwebb.com/pages/finished.html But I
don't believe the internet is a big enough world to do damage in
proportion that it can do good. [/QUOTE]


I have been reading Seth Godin's book Word of Mouth advertising... you should get it. It is really good.

I think it will give you some texture and dimension to these thoughts.

Again.. I doubt it could "destroy you" unless you did something wildly infamous but it could put a serious hurt on you. One that would take a long time to recover from.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=peterm] [QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=peterm] I'm sorry but I disagree with everybody....

I say slap a couple of 2X4's together throw some strings on it and sell it! There's a buyer for everything....   

Obvioulsy I'm just joking...

Lots of wise advise was given in this thread... Paul, I agree with you 100%

[/QUOTE]

That would be an electric guitar.    [/QUOTE]

Does that mean you disagree with me? [/QUOTE]

No... just a lame attempt at humor. Ever heard of "the log" it was an electric kind of built with these principles.   

Brock Poling39060.0869328704

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Rod True] That's funny that you mention the seasoned guys out there Brock, when I talked with Jim Olson about 5 years back, he said the same thing, also believed that most of us "young guns" would build a better 1st and 2nd than he did his 10th.

Good thread guys. [/QUOTE]


Yeah... lots of mixed messages for sure.

For me though, I am going at this for almost 8 years now and I am just now starting to explore a more national exposure. I think it is time.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=James Orr] I don't want there to be confusion that I have any contention with Paul or Brock. [/QUOTE]

OH, be a sport.    You have to work a lot harder than THAT to get under my skin.   

I do disagree with you, but it is only at a minor level. I understand your point. It is just a nice discussion.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Brock, is that Small is the New Big? I'm enjoying it to. Just trying to be
careful.

Kevin, I had no idea it had that effect on you personally. I wouldn't have
posted it if I did. I'm clearly enjoying it there! I don't believe he did it to
hurt you (doesn't sound like the person I know), but I believe it had that
effect. I never would have put the pic up if I had known the undertones
that are there. I do remember that you had looked for the original review.   
Losing your presence here isn't going to be pleasent. I know that I and
many others click as soon as we see your name. Eagerly in fact.